RIKKI ASHER | Zen Wisdom

Empty mountain, no man is seen. . . Only heard are echoes of men’s talk. Reflected light enters the deep wood And shines again on blue-green moss.
Deer Park
Empty mountain, no man is seen . . .
Only heard are echoes of men’s talk.
Reflected light enters the deep wood
And shines again on blue-green moss.By the end of the poem any human presence is gone. All that remains is light. Would Shih-fu comment on this poem?

SHIH-FU:
It is poetry, so you can interpret it any way you want to. For example, many Ch’an masters recognize everything as being perfect or the highest. If you interpret this poem from that vantage point, you can say that it describes a Ch’an state. But even if it does so, it is not a high level of Ch’an. It speaks of empty mountains in the sense that there are no people. Then it mentions the sound of human voices. Finally it leads to light shining on moss. My question is, who is seeing all of this? There is still an observer. As long as a self remains it cannot be a high level of Ch’an.

STUDENT:
There seems to be a mutual sharing or correspondence between Taoism and Buddhism. In fact, there is a story of Lao-tse going to India and becoming the Buddha. Ch’an is different from earlier Theravada and Hinayana Buddhism. Much of this difference seems to be the influence of Taoism. Taoism is nature oriented; it speaks of the tranquility and ever-changing yet eternal quality of nature. The Avatamsaka Sutra speaks about the interpenetration of the universal and the particular. Likewise, one of the goals of Ch’an practice is to unify the mind and become one with nature. Is my last statement correct, and was Taoism an influence on Buddhism?

SHIH-FU:
There will always be influences from other cultures and traditions. Lao-tse and Confucius were contemporaries of Sakyamuni Buddha, and so Taoism and Confucianism were already well established by the time Buddhism entered China. People naturally interpreted Buddhism in the light of what they could understand. Ch’an, especially the Southern school, was influenced by the naturalistic tendencies of Taoism. For example, the idea that all beings, sentient and non-sentient, can attain Buddhahood is not found in the original Indian sutras. There is a legend of Master Tao-sheng (355-434) giving a talk to no one while everything nodded its approval, including the rocks. These arc Taoist influences. Such ideas show up in the writings of monks succeeding the Sixth Patriarch.

A poet like Wang Wei was probably influenced by Taoism. At the same time, monks were producing Ch’an poetry and painting. These poems and paintings convey a state that seems to have no substance and yet is still dynamic. The artistic works convey the idea that any dharma includes all of totality. Such paintings would tend to be impressionistic or abstract. These works differ from the nature-influenced art. They are influenced directly by the Ch’an teachings.

As to unifying mind with nature, there is a point in one’s meditation when body, mind and environment become undifferentiated. There is no internal or external, no differentiation between previous thought and subsequent thought. It is possible for art and poetry to convey this feeling, and it is also possible for an artist and poet to experience this without practicing, but it is extremely difficult.

STUDENT:
Buddha-nature is everywhere and everything. Can artists, by way of their intense involvement with their art, attain certain levels of Ch’an without even knowing about Buddhism?

SHIH-FU:
It is possible for an artist to attain a state that may be called an artist’s enlightenment, a kind of unified mind, where the artist merges with the art, but the experience is still grounded in existence, not emptiness. Of course we can consider an artist’s enlightenment a shallow level of Ch’an attainment, but it is not the same as seeing one’s self-nature.

STUDENT:
Is it possible to somehow experience Ch’an without having had any exposure to Buddhism?

SHIH-FU:
It would be most difficult to have such an experience, because the person wouldn’t know about the idea of emptiness.

STUDENT:
What about the third Bodhisattva Vow which says there are limitless approaches to Dharma? You once said anything, even intellectualism, can be a path to enlightenment if you have no vexations or obstructions in your mind.

SHIH-FU:
If you have no vexations or obstructions in your mind, then you are already enlightened. You have already seen your self-nature. Just because it seems you have no emotional disturbances doesn’t mean you have no vexation.

STUDENT:
What if art becomes a method? Can you become so involved in the work that you experience the state of no-self?

SHIH-FU:
Almost impossible. If you become completely absorbed in your art, then art becomes the totality of your world and your life. You may think you have no self, but you are still attached to art.

STUDENT:
So then what is the meaning of the third Bodhisattva Vow?

SHIH-FU:
The third vow says there are limitless approaches to Dharma. The idea is that a bodhisattva will learn limitless Dharma approaches for the sake of helping sentient beings. It is not for the sake of the practitioner. For example, if someone is only interested in dancing, a bodhisattva would learn dancing in order to help the person understand Buddhadharma.

PREVIOUS: PART TWO: POETRY AND WANG WEI | Zen Wisdom
NEXT: RAISING BUDDHIST CHILDREN IN A NON-BUDDHIST SOCIETY | Zen Wisdom